The Spanking Scene was one thing.
Boobgate is quite another.
For those in denial:
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And there was hand-caressing and kisslettes,
don't forget..
Then...
Many are saying that Jamie is getting creepy now, or at
least is not living up to the Dream that is Jamie Fraser…that he has a ‘chink
in his armor’ *or armour? He is a Nicked Knight. A Hero Sandwich with a bite taken out (okay,
I will stop now) and others are saying he is just an inexperienced newlywed
kid who was tempted but was not truly unfaithful, and should be forgiven. Most are expressing each view quite passionately, because, believe me, Outlander fans are nothing
if not Passionistas! *forgive the idiom but it had to be said *wink*
In the largest FaceBook Outlander fan forum (that I moderate)
called 'Outlander Series FaceBook Group', there are lively discussions going on
to whether Jamie was just an innocent who was being kind to a young girl and letting
her down gently, or if he was just a jerk and not controlling himself like a decent
husband should, and really doesn’t love Claire as deeply as he does in the
books.
Ask yourself this question:
If YES, then welcome to #TeamJamieIsOnlyHumanOkay? If NO, then welcome to its #TeamJamieIsAManWhore
*I am #TeamQuitChangingTheBloodyCharactersPersonalitiesAndAddingFuckedUpScenes
Book adaptations are always hard and changes must be made...but NOT to the main protagonist's strongest character trait! BookJamie, who we truly adore, is gallant, trustworthy and chivalrous. Loyal. MADLY in love with Claire. He is indeed the King of Men! TVJamie is just average. Well, below average actually because newlyweds are usually still smitten/fresh enough to desire only their wives. And that is the problem in a nutshell. Average guys can cop a feel and walk away from temptation...provoked temptation at that. The Jamie's of the world are never tempted...even a little. They certainly dont do to a 16 yr old girl what the above gifs show. Later on, even in the brothel scenes in the book, does Jamie not really get tempted...just horny. He caresses nobody's hands sweetly, gives not one sexy, short-of-breath kisslette and does not enjoy a wee bit-o boobage with lusty fingers.
Book adaptations are always hard and changes must be made...but NOT to the main protagonist's strongest character trait! BookJamie, who we truly adore, is gallant, trustworthy and chivalrous. Loyal. MADLY in love with Claire. He is indeed the King of Men! TVJamie is just average. Well, below average actually because newlyweds are usually still smitten/fresh enough to desire only their wives. And that is the problem in a nutshell. Average guys can cop a feel and walk away from temptation...provoked temptation at that. The Jamie's of the world are never tempted...even a little. They certainly dont do to a 16 yr old girl what the above gifs show. Later on, even in the brothel scenes in the book, does Jamie not really get tempted...just horny. He caresses nobody's hands sweetly, gives not one sexy, short-of-breath kisslette and does not enjoy a wee bit-o boobage with lusty fingers.
**Late additions that popped in my mind during OS group discussions of this post and E9:
Jamie holding LegHair's snow white boob seemed familiar somehow... Ah! now I remember...
Official Music Video For Episode #9:
'You Can't Touch This' by MC Hammer!
WHOA!! Diana replied to this blog post on Twitter! She does not agree with the 'boob=penis theory' I have...that each is a sexual zone and therefore equal in DO NOT TOUCHINESS. Interesting...
We replied back and forth a bit but my final say to tweeters was: Breasts are a sexual part of a woman's body that give women 2 areas with equal import to 1 dick IMHO.
Debating book related topics is part of the fun of blogs and I thank Diana for her opinions and responses...it is a privilage to have her pick mine out for ANY reason.
*smiles and munches on popcorn*
This expresses my feelings a bit better and yes, I chose a flesh colored background *smile*:
Last one...promise. *smirk*
Interesting views and reactions:
from Atomic1cflea
And a BRILLIANT quote from our group member who said it best, when told not to 'nit-pick' or complain etc...
I don't think that Jamie was doing the "right" thing fondling "Leghair's" boob but I do think that he was considering his options. It may have appeared to him that Claire was very likely going to dump him after the spanking and Laoghaire was obviously keen to take up with him. He is a young, red blooded male. I wouldn't expect him to react much differently to the way he did. 😜
ReplyDeleteAgreed...IF Jamie were not Honor Personified in the books. As it stands, BookJamie would NEVER have touched or kissed any woman but Claire and certainly not look like he desired her. Even after a fight and angry. His love for Claire is supposed to be achingly pure and strong...not wishy washy. But I appreciate your opinion... :)
DeleteBear in mind that Leery is his former kissing game so naturally his hand on her breast would have gotten his attention but it still looked to me that all he wanted to do was get away from her without hurting her.
DeleteNovelEagle
DeleteMost people agree with you I think...and my opinions seems to be in the minority most times, for whatever reason!, so I think we shall have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the comment. :)
I just wish Jamie would have told leery that his love for Claire was true and he would never hurt Claire that way because the only one for him is Clair. Instead he just stated he was not going to break a vow, big deal. He made it seem that his marriage was just a contract on a peice paper and being "honorable" he would not break it. I think it was a very poor written scene when in an earlier episode he totally ignored her (at the hall), then Claire saw them together kissing. He never expressed his feelings for Claire to Leery so she thought she had a chance with Jamie because he played with her feelings. The writers in each episode should pay more attention to what was shown in previous episodes.
Deleteinterfan I hear ya....
DeleteYou are also an excellent storyteller Denise, I get so caught up in your writings..but here's my thought on the boob feel.. Claire turned him away, and now he knows what sex is like, he was just a horny man, most married men would have jumped on her, but not our Jamie, he stayed true blue to his marriage vows..sigh!!
ReplyDeleteThank you for the compliment! I hope you read more of my blog posts and comment. :) s for the rest, well, please look up and read my reply to Karalynneb. Cheers!
DeleteIf a newly married woman allowed herself to be guided to touch another man's penis that would be completely different to what happened here. Breasts are not genitals. Most red-blooded men would be very offended if their new missus touched another man's chest in a sexual way just as a woman would be offended if her husband touched another woman's boobs.
ReplyDeleteLet me reply by writing to you what I wrote to a member of our OS Facebook group who said the same thing: " I DO think 'hand on boob=hand on penis' and are equivalent in seriousness for 3 reasons: 1) women have two physical sexual zones...chest and crotch and men only one, so anyone lightly touching a man's chest is not sexually arousing 2) women's breasts often get named (Mitsy and Titsy, Olga and Bertha, Betty and Veronica...) just like men's penises (Dick, Peter, Johnson, Willy...) 3) A man will punch the shit out of any man touching his wife's boobage...or she will." This is, as always, just my opinion but I respect yours as well.
DeleteYou REALLY think men don't get sexually aroused via chest touching? My DH would beg to differ, as would dear Jamie, who is quite find of Claire pinching and caressing his nipples. They are as sexually stimulating & arousing as a woman's. To think otherwise is to have a very narrow and uninformed understanding of male bodies. Also, our culture does not view breasts in the same light as penis/vagina, as can be seen in FCC ratings: full frontal is only the genitals being shown, not breasts, because they actually are not a sex organ. They are sexualized. There is a big difference. But mens chests are just as sexualized. Just read the comments under a pic of Sam without a shirt on.
DeleteI have never known a man who cares at all about their chests...but concede that yours does, and many do. That is hardly earth shattering though because despite this becoming a major boob debate, I don't care who touches whose boobs or genitalia....its so prevalent, who cares really... the MAIN issue is that BookJamie would have never lusted (like he certainly did in that scene!) after LegHair or allowed an intimate touch/half-kiss etc...to happen. JAMMF greatest trait was his honor, loyalty and trustworthiness and he has lost that now. BookJamie is a King of Men. Starz Jamie is just an average guy. Also, in the book, Jamie loves Claire beyond all reason. Not according to THAT scene. He wanted LegHair and that shocked us. Adaptations must change things...understood, but NOT the main character trait of the main protagonists.
DeleteI do feel like book Jamie would not have gone that far. Remember the Indian woman? 😉 But this is the TV version, the poor boy had blue balls and lost his heid for a second. He didna put his own hand there. He should have moved faster, granted, but he did send her packing. I could see a man putting a woman's hand on the bulge in his pants. Actually have had that done to me, so....
ReplyDeleteAnyway, love the blog!! Not surprised Diana answered you. You are a great writer and she kens her kind!! 😎😜
Blue balls..LOL! That is a term from the good ol' days. Thank you for the kind words...I am glad you enjoyed the blog. I love that DG read it again...she has re-posted 2 pieces from here on her FB page already so any attention she gives me is welcome. We differ in our opinions about the penis=boobs theory but debating is one of the joys of reading books. Her books remain brilliant even if the show misses the mark so often. Cheers!
DeleteI'm so in #TeamQuitChangingtheBloodyCharecters etc. .I don't get why they added scene; maybe to piss people off & create controversy.
ReplyDeleteWelcome to the Club. You can be the Treasurer.
DeleteWhile I understand the writers giving the tv only audience background for leghairs future actions....it was definitely a WTF? Moment. No way no how would "our" Jamie come close to kissing her or playing handsies or allowing her to place his hand on her boobs. Had he wanted Leghair he could have had her months earlier...I also agree that a woman's breasts are a sexual organ....as are a man's...(My DH's definitely are)...had Claire grabbed let's say Willies bare chest...played handsies, and almost kissed him..folks would be up in arms.
ReplyDeleteI agree...well said. I would say though that the writer's needn't have gone to such lengths to lay such a background for her...it is quite obvious that a young spurned woman could be vicious and vindictive...
ReplyDeleteIf I recall correctly, (and do say if I'm remembering the book wrong) wasn't it off scene in the book when Jamie met Leghair? And Claire was really jealous? Soooo... taking that into consideration, we really DON'T know what happened between Jamie and Leghair, we just have Jamie's word for it when he told Claire. And I don't think he would have told Claire if Leghair tempted him since he had had intimate acquaintance with Claire by that time.
ReplyDeleteThe King of Men...the Jamie of the books we fell for would NOT have lied or made a lie of omission. He even swears an oath to always be honest to Claire. It is a BIG part of his character. That scene with LegHair makes Jamie a lesser man the the Jamie of the books just as E8 served to make Frank a better man than the books. They have screwed around with the characters too much and changed the heart of the story....in my opinion. :P
DeleteSign me up on #TeamQuitChangingTheBloodyCharactersPersonalitiesAndAddingFuckedUpScenes! The writers made Jamie look like a coward, unable to fend off a 16 year old girl, unable to finish his sentences and say that he was happy with the marriage. (and yes, I read what Diana wrote on compuserve - this just serves as another example of the screwing around with characters bit). I want book Jamie back. And now, what about the rest of series? What else have they done?
ReplyDeleteIndeed. The upcoming episodes will be interesting. basically, I am still watching because I love the books so much...and the show kinda feeds this blog lately ...and I LOVE Dougal and Murtagh. And Dead Eye Ned. LOL!
DeleteI hate the alteration of Jamie's character. Women love him because he epitomizes all that is honorable in man..How many of us have loved deeply, only to be betrayed? Simply put, Jamie betrayed not only Claire, but his faithful fans.
ReplyDeleteCorrespondingly, Jamie mislead a 16 yr. old by engaging in foreplay in the open, in broad daylight. Today, that's a crime. 200 years ago, it was dangerous, disrespectful and downright dirty.
Have to agree on all points. They made Jamie a jerk and Frank a Saint. Go figure. *silver lining...I LOVE TVFrank. :D
DeleteFood For Thought : I had never heard of the books, until I watched OUTLANDER on STARZ. I was so fascinated with the story, scenery, characters, production, etc. but first & foremost, the beautiful, lusty, loyal & dedicated love that Claire & Jamie have for one another, and Cait & Sam's performances, not just the sex scenes which (I thought my heart was going to burst)) but in all the episodes, made me fall in love with Claire & Jamie and OUTLANDER. So I couldn't wait the 7 months to see what happens so, I purchased the book and DRAGONFLY IN AMBER. I have now read all the books at least 4 times and OUTLANDER & VOYAGER 6 TIMES...THEY ARE MY FAVORITES, It had been 30 years since I had read a book! When Leghair & Jamie shocked us with the touchy/boobie thingy, in Ep.9, it was intended to be a temptation for Jamie, and yes, he said no, but not before he acted like he was going to jump her bones! Personally, I was very disappointed in the scene, because Jamie's not the KING OF MEN! He's already stated he had fallen in love with Claire, almost love at first site, and Jamie would have told Longhair, he was sorry, BUT HE WAS MARRIED AND LOVED HIS WIFE! What some ppl who haven't read the books don't know, is what a little vindictive B___CH she is, & what she does to Claire. I dislike her character so much, when she does come back to the story, years later, Claire had been gone for over 10 yrs., and in VOYAGER, when Jamie was telling Claire about what goes on with leghair, I could not stand to hear him telling the story, it made me sad, so I skimmed past it the 1st 3 times I read Voyager...I totally get what Ron, writers, etc. are doing, but I am just hoping they don't change the love and loyalty that C & J have for one another, for years to come. The books are like an escape for some of us, and we love Jamie just like we know him, not "THE KING OF MEN"...SO ...this is only my opinion (almost as long as a short story, sorry) AND the truth of the matter is, my opinion isn't worth a hill of beans, so I am going to TRUST Ron, and the people who have brought our beloved books to life,and they will be EPIC and will be remembered many years to come, even better than GONE WITH THE WIND!!! We have to remember, Ron, Terry, Meril, and all the others, love the books, as we do! Thank You for patience, I didn't mean to go on & on...NOW...I'm going to relax...LOL... have a few glasses of wine & watch ep..09 again & again!!!
ReplyDeleteWell said jazzcatt2...and I appreciate and understand what you mean. I even agree up until the last point about trusting Ron etc... They have lost that trust and I do not agree that they love the books. They are not like us. To them, it is a job. To us, is a treasure. I am sure they respect it and are trying to do well, but they are changing too much when they change character traits. Like you so rightly said, Jamie is supposed to be King of Men. Now he is just an average fault ridden Joe. Blah! *but I will watch still...because there are parts I like....like Murtagh, Dougal and Ned....and I am curious t how things will play out. Thanks again for your thoughtful comment. *raises glass to toast a fellow book lover*
DeleteWARNING - Book spoilers below
ReplyDeleteBook Jamie had sex w/Lallybroch servant woman in cave before he went to Ardsmuir and he married and had sex with Laoghaire. He was technically unfaithful to Claire. So Book Jamie isn't a saint and average TV Jamie isn't a sinner. Just my humble opinion, folks.
Hmmmm...I dont think having sex with the servant while living alone (and thinking he was forever alone) in the cave is quite the same as feeling up and lusting after LegHair three seconds after getting married with his wife within spitting range. Hardly comparable! I agree BookJamie isnt a 100% Saint and TVJamie isnt a 100% Sinner, but the very fact that we have to even SAY Book or TV Jamie to clarify which we are talking about means there has been to much distance set between them and they are no longer the same character. THAT is the bottom line... and it is getting lower each episode. *I appreciate your views though...we cannot always agree, we fans, or a dull debate it would be! Cheers!
ReplyDeleteDr. Denise,
ReplyDeleteOnce again, this post is so very insightful, as usual, and I would like to comment on BoobGate, with its serious implications about the differences between male & female erogenous zones.
While it's abundantly clear that there is much more surface area on a woman's breasts -- especially on LegHair's breasts, as compared to Claire's -- than on her nipples, I'm not quite convinced that the breasts are the ultimate erogenous zone for the woman. Perhaps for the man, but mayhaps not so much for the woman herself.
I do have to tell you that I agree with Herself on The Twitter that "a breast is not a penis #nohow #noway," especially since, if it were, there would be no inequity on the planet, no necessity for rulers measuring inches or centimeters, no blindness from overuse, and no "penis envy" for Freud to have elaborated upon, as each of us would have a phallic symbol to wave around if we dropped our sword or pistol in a fight.
But I digress...
Scientific studies have, no doubt, already demonstrated that most men's "breast" area and nipples are not as erogenous and sexually stimulating as other prominent areas of their bodies. Therefore, please allow me to make a suggestion for the male anatomy that might correspond more closely to female breasts in the BoobGate issue under discussion: the male buttocks.
The male buttocks, especially when bare, seem to be highly erogenous, at least for the men, although I believe that women can also get aroused from touching and slightly squeezing a male's bare buttocks as well. This might be the equivalent of the female's breast -- no matter how much of it is exposed -- when the most arousing part of the breast (the nipple) is still covered by clothes (please reference your own jpg/gif above).
I do agree, however, that in the scene with LegHair, Jamie, though he did not, in fact, first place his own hand on said exposed erogenous zone, he did, indeed, squeeze said erogenous zone after the connection was made.
Obviously, there is a further philosophical question involved in this scene, since it apparently did not appear with St. Jamie in the books: did JAMIE squeeze LegHair's exposed breast after she placed his hand upon it, or did SAM do it, simply because (a) he is a male, (b) LegHair, no matter her character's personality deficits, does have more than ample attractive breast tissue, ( c ) he is a male, (d) it was in the script, (e) the opportunity was there so the actor took it, or (f) he is a male.
Jamie or Sam: you decide. But, again, I fear I digress...
A more appropriate question which arises from BoobGate re: Claire and Jamie, then, might be this: If Claire had touched the bare muscular buttocks of another attractive man, would she be guilty of ButtGate?
Would her "sin" be as great as Jamie's, especially if the owner of the bare muscular buttocks in question was the one who had originally placed Claire's hand on the area?
Would Claire's "sin" be venial or mortal if she had merely touched another male's bare muscular buttocks without squeezing?
Alas, these may be questions for the philosophers and theologians.
In any event, BoobGate had to be exposed, and your question -- though perhaps it should have dealt with ButtGate rather than with GenitaliaGate -- needed to be raised and discussed, and I thank you for, once again, bringing such important moral questions out of the bedroom / isolated-location-in-the-woods-next-to-the-river and into the public arena for discussion.
Most sincerely, and with gratitude for the topical post,
Dr. Alexandria
Since you are a real doctor and I am neither a doctor or philosopher be, I can only rely on my layman's knowledge and beliefs of what constitutes a 'No Touch Zone' and why we all care about it at all. I enjoyed your response and it makes one think...which is always good, but I am not sure if Buttgate was an image in my mind's eye that I wanted to deal with (smile)
DeleteMany hate that Boobgate happened and many could care less. It is the same in all things. It is only my opinion and one that I hope draws discussion (and a few smiles)
The bottom line for me was, and still is, Jamie's behavior was not one of a decent married man towards a young girl 7 or 8 years his junior, and it was not the behavior I, and many, expected form a character much respected, admired and loved. He was never a Saint in the book but he was never anything but madly in love with Claire and a gentleman.
Starz has changed the character and so be it! The sun will rise another day...
Thanks again for your views as they are always interesting, regardless of whether we agree!
Oh, we completely agree about Jamie in this scene. I haven't read the books, but even in the show, he was not very reluctant about touching her. If my own BF did that -- even if the girl did put his hand on her -- I'd me outraged that he didn't run as fast as he could in the opposite direction. And we've been together over 21 years. If we were newlyweds (who are clearly falling in love, at least, if not already in love), I'd be hurt and furious both.
DeleteAnd as for the character changes, Hollywood doesn't really respect writers unless they make money for Hollywood, so it'll change whatever it wants in an attempt to make more money for itself.
The grab for more more money...yes, I believe you are right. And that is just the way the cutout cookie crumbles. *which makes it sound like a soap opera, which is the harshest criticism I can think of.
DeleteAlexandria....I don't know if you were being facetious or not in your post, but I was laughing my head off at the sheer logic of your approach to the Boobgate/Buttgate scandal......Well said indeed :)
DeleteUnknown... Alexandria is rather brilliant actually and I always appreciate her comments too. :)
Deleteyou know I love the books the show is what got me into the books...but lets be realistic Jamie is a MAN,,,,,he's not dead...he did touch ..but only after she threw herself @ him...my husband would have said.."Hell you're lucky I didn't do more" and laughed...the book Jamie is perfect...what man is really that perfect?
ReplyDeleteAll husbands are different, of course...my hubby said he would have never let his hand be guided there in the first place. He said if a man really loves his wife, he wouldn't even be tempted. I agree.
DeleteAnd yes, BookJamie is rather perfect in a lot of ways...which is why he is so desired. Had he been written less noble, then there would never even been a #Boobgate.
Just discovered your blog. I don't know when I've laughed so hard at written words. New subsciber! Brilliant humor!
ReplyDelete*bows deeply* Many thanks for a very kind comment Jill! Every writer wants to be read, and when it's appreciated, it feels like a home run. :) Thanks for letting me know you enjoyed the piece, and I hope you enjoy the rest! Cheers!
DeleteYou made me laugh- and put correctly the mis-handling of this part of the story. It hardly needed to be added and (seems these folks can't stop adding crap and leaving out the good stuff.) I reflect on my late husband (of almost 42 years) who, in ALL our years would have never ever let anyone put him in such an 'awkward' place (lol). He was a very sweet and attractive man--got enough attention from other females-and was never ever tempted. It just would not have occurred to him-- I see Jamie as the same type of man. So--with all that said--King Ron and his group created 'boobgate'. Shame on them for taking honorability away from Jamie.
ReplyDeleteI hear you Dee: my husband is a Jamie too...
DeleteI'm trying to reply to Unknown's comment of 26 November 2016, but I am having the most horrific time getting the Reply to work. Alas. In any event, I was attempting to get the same philosophical tone in my Boobgate/Buttgate response that the great Jonathan Swift had in his satirical "A Modest Proposal." I can only assume, since you could not quite determine whether or not I was being facetious, that I succeeded, and I thank you for the compliment. Cheers, Unknown, and Denise,
ReplyDeleteAlexandria
My dearest Alexandria: I have a feeling that you are no stranger to success...on SO many levels. Cheers!
Delete